Just a quickie:

Post 'Tiericide' and Extra materials, I don't think you have changed the Insurance payouts to reflect the new relative build costs.
For Example:
- A Platinum Insured Dominix still only seems to payout about 60m whereas it retails for circa 200m.
- A Platinum Insured Hyperion still returns perhaps 150m and retails for roughly the same now as a Dominix.

This disparity appears to occur across all the recently balanced ship classes and really skews ship choices for PVP - surely it would make sense to rectify this while you confirm the new 'baseline' costs of ships by eliminating extra materials? Either that or I'm badly misunderstanding how insurance works now. Thanks.

Oh and that bottom screenshot looks like a horribly random placement of information. At least when it is all linear you can quickly scan across to find what you want - explosively scattering the information all over the screen for the sake of 'pretty' seems silly to me - but I guess I'll reserve my functionality comments for the UI blog.

Thanks.

Feel free to elaborate at any time

The POS interface/management should be updated prior to industry changes, the interface is too cumbersome to cope with the added complexity you are suggesting with these industry changes.

Painted ships - failed , Did you really pay someone wages for the new paint jobs ?

Charging to have high quality stream of fanfest ? - you tight *******

How will extra materials be worked in if they are not a normal part of the required materials? An example would be cloaks, they now require a Hermetic Membrane as an extra material but not as part of their regular materials. How will the extra cost of the PI material "Hermetic Membrane" be worked in to the regular cost which only consists of standard minerals?

Maybe they will, they just have not said. Their only example was with a apples to apples comparison. Maybe they will remove things like PI that were added and not part of the normal build requirements.

Fortunately, corp offices are not strictly necessary to do research.

Uh, yes. They are a corporation. They exist to make money.

It would be preferential for me to be able to afk a freighter through nullsec to deliver precious raw materials to my farms, but unfortunately, there are bubbles and shooty mans.

This does not give me the foothold to demand insta-align, interdiction nullified freighters.

trust me our problem with office limits is far worse than yours, we would happily agree to infinite offices for all stations and outposts

Yes but this is atrocious game design.

Hi sec is basically a wrong solution to a non problem.

Should never have been created beyond the few new player starting systems.

But hi sec seems not going anywhere anytime soon and is part of a sandbox game.

Now, if you establish a canned path that says: "IF you want to progress (in a meaningful way) you SHALL move from A to B" then you have just created a theme park game, a WoW in space.

This is what I am fighting against since so many years, I can't play a fake sandbox that in reality is a canned path game.

Either convert hi sec into something else or leave it viable.
I'd really prefer the first solution but CCP so far have gone for the latter.
By abdicating to the latter and also not doing the former, they are just going to enforce an obligatory path and thus create a canned progression game.

That is, a stink like most fail MMOs currently out.

So then when CCP said in the blog. "Our goal in making the changes to invention are to ...." by your definition this is not a sanbox game? Just trying to get clarity here so we are all on the same plane for further discussions.

CCP are feeding you (nullsec community) with golden spoon ...what the hell you are adapting for ? the new wealth income they are introducing to you ?

If it isn't that obvious for you till now, with countless rebuffs to every aspect in game I don't see reason to write wall of text describing what are they.

Sounds like just a series of nerfs to industry players.

So far we have:

1. reduction in the ore yield from barges/exhumer
2. the requirement to train through a dozen or so Level V refining skills and needing to insert an implant to obtain the pre-summer refine levels
3. increased reliance on POS. But the actual mechanics of POS continue to be poor
4. removal of standing for POS anchoring?!

But standing will still be required for managing rental of a corporate office at an NPC station
But standing will still be required for to managing taxes associated with the market
But standing will still be required for to lower taxes on NPC refining facilities


I recall the motto from the ship rebalance: if you could fly it before, you will be able to fly it after. Well seems for Industry: if you could perform something before, you wont be doing it after.

Wonder what else will need to be inserted by the end of these series of dev blogs - hint wont be in the head.

Having a POS is no small thing and I believe it supposed to be difficult to have one.

There are hundreds of small corp descriptions where you can read that they enthusiastically plan to set up a POS, --- one day. Most of them will not manage. It is hard. Yet, it is one of the few things which are easier for a small dedicated corp than for a large one. And having a POS is one of the rare goals corps have in EVE.

Removing the standing requirement will "providing everybody with a POS", but it is also removing one of the few accomplishments for corps. The coolness factor will be gone. You can no longer proudly advertise that your corp has a POS because you did it!

Taking the Xmas money from your grandma to buy a plex, changing the ISK into a tower, training one day for anchoring, ---tada, POS! This is your idea of "new and fresh game play"?

And for those arguing that building up standing is a useless grind: some of us like flying missions. We do this even as a corp activity. It is fun doing this together and we help new members through their first steps flying L2 or L3. It is a way to learn about the necessary skills, about ships and basic tactics.

The alternative created by removing standings feels bland and removes an iconing accomplishment for corps. Do not do it.

The same reasons we dont give players lv5 skills off the bat, or that capship skills have significantly greater multipliers.
Not even mentioning lore or rp, as that is widely laughed at.

How does one arrive at that conclusion? I am genuinely interested, where you see the disconnect of -5.0 + you dont get shot at, fraternize with other people of 7 + and you can have a CONCORD protected pos in highsec.

I see a lot of talk of POS bashing and noobs spamming POS,s come the change but ask yourself this... After the change why even put up a POS in high-sec? You can just move five to eight jumps from Jita and have all the slots you want for less than the monthly cost of a POS.

Personally I have a few systems on my radar and after the change I will most likely take my POS down and avoid the hassles of having it while doing industry in the total safety of a station. This change is actually going to reduce the number of POS,s in high-sec.

For the record, there are 358 50% refineries in the Forge alone.

In all of nulsec, there are 487. They are all Conquerable Outposts or NPC stations, rather than Player-Built Stations. This does not include any 50% player built stations. But those are few and far between because guess what, with 40% refinery, level 4 specialty skills and a 1% implant, you could get perfect refine/reprocessing.

That is the problem... but suddenly it is a hot topic and everyone wants changes that could and should have been made a lot earlier.

I guess we disagree then, the difference is that my conclusion is based on the logic of the issue without regard to emotion. There are many, many industrialists like me who have multiple subscriptions(6), that are rethinking the amount of time and effort that goes into building a large successful industry corp. If faced with the choice of either playing just as long/hard for significantly less return and vastly increased risk or moving my operation to Null and dealing with the prepubescent corps/alliances/players that reside out there or alternately dropping several of my subscriptions and playing more ESO, Star Citizen etc. Many of us will just choose to do something that is more accepting of our gaming style.

There will always be spikes and valleys in sub rates in an MMO, what makes(made) Eve unique was that the learning curve weeded out the casual and left you with a core group of devoted members. When you limit the style of play that a segment wants then you limit the number of people who want to play. This would hold true of any style of play, if CCP decided tomorrow that there would be no ganking in HS they would lose sub's as a result of that decision.

I don't think I mention "limitations" once in any post I've thrown up here. The argument none of you null inhabitants has addressed regards play style. I have zero issue with how anyone in any space earns their isk and reaps enjoyment from the game. Gank, scam, pvp, etc to your hearts content, I welcome attempting to elude your efforts to blap me. The central argument is not Null vs High, nor their respective advantages. The central argument that all of us should be concerned about is CCP's efforts to force a play style/area on the player base.

The loss of remote jobs vastly increases the value at risk for any pos related industry work with BPO's. That is a giant nut crusher when you have multiple 1 billion isk plus BPO's in process at any one time. In the meantime we know exactly **** all about any changes to bonuses for POS arraysd and CCP having the audacity to charge us isk on top of already paying for POS fuels. And just because they haven't broken things enough, BPO's can't be locked down in a control tower.

Considering how few science services are available in empire, the costs of research in station may be very pricy, also Tech 3 science and industry can't be done in stations. The question that is still lingering will be changes to speed bonuses for array use. Station services can be soul-crushingly slow, especially for T2 production.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't looking to be "objective" in my post rather I was articulating the frustration High Sec Industrialists have expressed regarding the upcoming changes. Let me turn the argument around and ask exactly what your specific High Sec Industrial experience is? Build a few tormentors or shuttles during the Career Missions 100 years ago? I oversee 12-20 Billion in production per week, with BPO assets exceeding 80 Billion. I know my credentials and qualifications to speak about how High Sec Industrialists think of these changes, care to enlighten me as to yours? Or are you just a troll looking to see your name in lights?

If you read CCP Dev blogs, Jester's Blog and countless others you would understand that there is a concerted effort to move more industry to Null(exactly what do you think this entire debacle is for?) My point, for the 38th time, is that there is a large group of High Sec manufacturers who do not want to go to Null and very probably will stop production because the risk(BPO's must be in POS), aggravation(make BPO copies for every high value POS job), additional expense(variable taxes even on POS production) and competitive disadvantage(duh, Nulsec is cheaper) that HS Industry will now incur. There is no "imaginary" obstacle to High Sec enjoyment of Industry, this dev blog makes it reality.

Let me just pre-empt your very witty response-of course no one is saying build here or else, instead they are taking all motivation to build in location "A" and moving it to location "B" which coincidentally is the place no one wants to live as evidenced by all the null bears who come to high sec for carebear thrills(Way to pwn that unarmed industrial, you manly man).



Post Script: Objective; (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. (Of course I'm not being objective, everything I'm saying on this thread is influenced by MY opinions regarding the facts laid in the CCP changes)

Er, excuse me, but isn't Low and nul sec SUPOSED to be harder/tougher in every sense, isn't that part of the "challenge" for those of us who whish to take it. How odd to come across a complaint about that.

You sound like a dev's alt, praying that most of the people who have said they are unsubbing are really not, because if even half of them do, oh boy.

As for high sec being more profitable, mathematically impossible, given what the dev's have stated.
Also, T2 invention is getting the same application as all other high sec nerfs in the fall/winter.

Lastly, one of the chief architects of this null sec win has already stated that a subscription drop is expected, in exchange for "long term game viability".

And the very best part of these nerfs, the ever so sweet part of these nerfs, is this:

One of the largest demographics hurt by this, the casual high sec player, they don't even know this assault on their playstyle is coming, because they don't even follow the forums and dev blogs.

The only way they will know is when they suddenly don't get perfect refine, and they lose half their mission loot, and they find out that building a Nestor from a BPC they ground LP for just shot up 200 M in cost, and that the cost of their T1 Raven Navy Issue just shot up 10 or 14% in price to buy, plus using an NPC station to build their ammo just went up a 1000 fold in cost, and they have to buy from the market instead.

And a few months after that, when the the people that got shell-shocked in June, when their subs start running out, then we shall witness the true brilliance and beauty of this war on high sec, in its full glory.

Bravo null sec cartels, bravo. A true coup.

Is not that Im going to stop playing the game, I will just no use for my HS accounts and yes there wont be a bunch of trade hubs all over 0.0, but volume will decrease in Jita because is more expensive to make or you will need to transport it and 0.0 people wont need to import modules and ships from HS to 0.0.

This alone will increase prices in ALL trade hubs, what would be a way to get everything cheaper?
Fly 5 jumps to get a ship then maybe another 3 to get your guns and now to look for the Damage control and lets travel to the dude that is building it in the middle of nowhere.

Im not talking here only from a part time industrialist perspective but mainly as a consumer. I don't want higher prices and is not like mineral will increase in prices because the price increase will come from transportation alone.